darkoshi | Entries tagged with agnosticism

ladysisyphus wrote a post with tips on how to read the bible.

It mentions that if you decide to tackle it from the beginning to the end, that you're not likely to make it through the end of Exodus. That reminded me of when I started reading the Old Testament back in 2000, and made me wonder how far I got. Based on my notes, I made it through Samuel2.

To keep myself motivated, I took notes on items that seemed interesting, strange, funny or repulsive to me. I don't believe I ever posted these notes before. So they are below, for anyone who might be interested.

By the way, I am agnostic. Not at all Christian. I don't even consider myself spiritual - I believe in the possibility of there being a spiritual side to the world, but I've felt very little of it so far.

Also, I'm vegan (and a feminist) and think it's not very nice to treat animals (or women for that matter) badly. So that is why a lot of my comments focus on those aspects.

I know that there's a lot more to the Bible than the parts I read, and that there are many versions of it, and tons of ways to interpret it, and tons of history behind it so that you can't just take it at its literal word.

Yet the same could be said for a lot of things. The parts of the Bible which I read don't at all describe a religion of love and kindness, so I do wonder sometimes why people who describe their Christian religion as such cling to this book as the undeniably TRUE and incontrovertible "Word of God". I know that having a big long confusing and hard to read ancient text lends an air of mystery to things, and it gives something for religious scholars to study and lend their own interpretations to. But to me, it's all rather meh. I've long since lost my fascination with ancient history and writings.

If you are Christian and/or hold the Bible in high esteem, please don't reply to the items mentioned in the notes, in an attempt to better explain them to me. I'm not likely to respond to any such comments. Even if you can manage to do so in a way that makes me go "Ahhh, that makes better sense", it'll still be rather "meh" to me. I'm not interested in making sense of it. Even if the whole of the Bible could be meaningfully explained to represent love and kindness, it's not going to make me start believing in a god.

My original purpose in reading it was only to have an idea of what it says, to use against other people who like to quote it. Now I don't think it is worth arguing with people who like to quote it. I simply "meh", roll my eyes, and ignore them.

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This first part of my notes has some thoughts from before I started reading the Bible.

Genesis through Joshua (New American Standard Bible)

Some more random thoughts of mine.

Judges through 2Samuel

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Useful websites:
BibleGateway
(lets you search and compare verses from many different versions of the Bible)

BibleHub
(even shows multiple versions of the same verse on a single page)

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Crossposts: http://darkoshi.livejournal.com/618150.html

There's a TV in Qiao's room at the rehab center; it always seems to be on and tuned in to some news channel. The room has 2 beds, each with a hand-held speaker gadget that can be turned on and off, for listening to the TV sound. Qiao's is usually off, but the other patient's speaker is loud enough to be heard in the whole room.

The channel seems like Fox News to me; it sounds more like a conservative talk show than actual news. Qiao said it was CNN.

One segment discussed a recent survey which indicates that more young people today are "doubting the existence of God". This was presented as if it were a bad thing. Two atheist college students were on as guests, and they were asked the question, "How can you not believe in God?" (or something similar to that).

The phrasing bothered me. It seemed to exude a presumption that it is normal to believe in a god. It seemed like they were saying, "You're weird and illogical; explain to us normal people why you're so weird".

Apparently, most people do believe in one or more gods. Even many people who don't, still believe in (and/or feel) some other kind of spirituality. So I think that something must predispose most humans for that. However, likewise, I think there must be something that predisposes or causes other humans (like me) not to believe.

It's no easier for people like me to explain why we don't believe, than it is for believers to explain why they do. Or rather, we can both try to explain it, but we can't make the other person really understand.

My thoughts were going along those lines, and I said, "They should ask how anyone *can* believe in god." Ie., the one question is just as valid (and useless) as the other.

Qiao replied that he believes, and that he thinks he is still alive because of God.

I know that he believes, and that he's Christian... he's taken comfort in being visited by the priest of his church, and in praying together.

However, I usually don't pay much attention to that fact. I'm completely aware of it, but it's also in the background of my mind rather than the forefront. I tend to ignore it. The same way I do his conservative politics, and the fact that he enjoys listening to those kind of talk shows. And sort of like how I ignore that we aren't very sexually compatible.

Qiao's words brought it back to the forefront of my mind for a bit. It's a downer; that is why I usually ignore it.

It made me think about how superficial our relationship is. When I visit him in the hospital, we hold hands. It's a very comforting feeling. I'm comfortable with him. He makes me feel good. He's my "sweetheart", as one of my co-workers phrased it.

We live together, we eat dinner together, we watch some TV shows together, we sleep in the same bed together, we show each other good internet videos that we've found...

But when I really think about it, it is all rather superficial, in the same way that life itself seems superficial to me. It's just something than I'm going through / living through... there's no deep meaning in any of it.

If he were agnostic, and if his political leanings were more like mine... That might make us seem better matched, but I don't think it would make the relationship seem any "deeper".

If his sexuality were more like mine... if there were an ongoing spark between us, rather than there only having been the occasional sparks I felt in the beginning... I'm not sure how that would affect my feeling of the "deepness" of the relationship.

If I felt an ongoing spark with someone, I suspect that might make me start believing in something, though I know not what. If I believed in something, then maybe the relationship wouldn't seem superficial.

Crossposts: http://darkoshi.livejournal.com/473498.html

Walking along, lost in random thought. Something catches my attention momentarily, and I decide to stop, go back a few steps to look again... and I stand still. Noticing things. Listening. A little fly walking on the wood railing. Sunlit leaves on a sapling. A repetitive chirping noise from a cricket to the left. A more constant higher-pitched noise from a cricket (?) to the right. The roaring noise of the highway in the distance. Each one of these things comes into my attention, then fades as I focus on something else. The birds singing. How my body feels, balanced on my feet. Is there any scent in the air? Not really. Trees, leaves, the water in the stream flowing. I am standing still, with all this surrounding me, all this happening around me in the world. So much going on all the time, which I do not notice, except when I focus my attention on it. What things may exist, which I have never noticed, because I have not focused on them? What things may exist, which I don't know how to focus on... maybe there is something out there, but I have not learned (or have forgotten) how to sense it?

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Religion. Were my random thoughts about religion? I was thinking about how it is not wrong for someone to believe in a religion (or anything), just as it is not wrong for someone not to believe it. How can one be wrong for believing something? Belief simply is. Just as non-belief simply is. And religion is about things which cannot be proved nor disproved. As much as I find some beliefs, religious and otherwise, to be strange or unbelievable, or even offensive, still, how can I think that people are wrong to have those beliefs? They simply do, for whatever reasons. Their brains simply are that way.

The idea of a God creating the universe, creating humans, does not make sense to me. The idea of a God, existing alone in emptiness, before it decided to create the universe, does not make sense to me. What would such a God have been like? Did this God have thoughts? What kind of thoughts could a being have, without a universe to give those thoughts context? If nothing else existed yet, what kind of thoughts could a being have? It does not make sense to me, and so I cannot believe it.

But many people do. So... supposing there was a God... it must have created some people with a belief in a God, and it must have created other people like me, without such a belief. Or it must have left whether or not any particular person would believe in a God, to chance. Either way, in doing so, it was affirming the rightness of both ways of being. Otherwise, why create both?

Or perhaps there was one god (or several gods) who created the people who believe in religions, and there was another god (or gods), who created the people who don't believe.

Anyway. Why would a god create the universe? One cannot fathom a god's thoughts or a god's reasons, some say. The god was lonely, and wanted to create humans who would adore and worship it, others say.

So. Suppose there somehow was this God, alone in a vast emptiness, before the universe existed. And suppose that this god was bored and/or lonely (supposing that such thoughts/feelings could exist in a void). And suppose that this god had a power of Creation. And so it Created Something, to stave off the boredom and/or loneliness. (How does creating a universe stave off boredom and loneliness? How does having beings believe in you, and worship you, and pray to you, stave off loneliness?) If I were God, and had created this world, would it not have been in order to experience it? Would I not choose to be every piece of my creation, experiencing every facet of it? I would be every rock, every tree, every atom spinning in the void.... I would experience every person's experiences, sense every being's senses... Perhaps that might stave off boredom. Perhaps.

It still doesn't make much sense to me though. Not enough for me to have any belief.

My own existence doesn't make sense to me either, and yet I exist. So I do not deny the possibility of a God or Gods, or something magic and special and unknown, which exists outside of my senses. There just hasn't been anything so far, which has made enough sense to me, for me to be able to believe in it.

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Another reason I am not able to believe in a God which created the universe, is that it doesn't answer the question about how the God came into existence. If everything that exists must have had a creator, and if God exists, then who was God's creator? In contrast, if it is possible to believe in a God that has always existed (and had no creator), then why is it so different or difficult to believe in the possibility that the universe has always existed? Why do people believe that the universe must have been Created, but don't believe the same thing about the Creator?

I just found out that the South Carolina state constitution, in Article 6, section 2 prohibits atheists (and possibly agnostics like me) from holding office:

SECTION 2. Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office.

No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.

Fortunately, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that such clauses are unconstitutional based on the U.S. Constitution. But that text has never been removed from our state constitution, and I bet a large percentage of people who live here probably would support keeping it.

7 other states still have similar clauses in their constitutions or bill of rights.

Current Mood: sickened

[ Originally from some religion survey. ]

Religion Definition
are you mono or polytheistic? umm. dunno.
do you subscribe to a major religion? no.
how do you feel about Jesus? cool dude, maybe. or maybe not. dunno, haven't met him.
what holy book do you feel is most accurate (Bible, Koran, etc) I haven't read enough holy books to say. (can a book be holy?) I certainly don't think the Bible or Koran is accurate.
do you believe in reincarnation? sometimes
do you believe in the traditional heaven and hell? no
do you believe in ANY heaven and/or hell? not really
do you think the god(s) are vengeful or nice? hmm. some are vengeful. some are nice. some are vengeful and nice. wait, does that make me poly?
do you believe in angels? not really.
do you believe in miracles? not really. although, I suppose some strange things could happen.
do you believe in predestination? sometimes. but not really.
do you believe in original sin? no.
do you believe in freedom of will? perhaps. perhaps not.
do you believe in souls? usually, sort of.
what do you think will happen to you when you die? well, i might just be dead. or i might reincarnate into another stupid lifeform. or i might wake up in a place that feels like home with people that feel like friends. aw, that would be nice.
do you think there will be an armageddon? no. although i have fantasized about it.
why do you think we exist? dunno.
do you believe in life on other planets? could be possible.
do you believe in evolution? yes, sort of.
do you think religion and science will always oppose the other? they don't always. it depends on the science and the religion, of course.
what would you say to God if you met him/her/them today? "uhhh....." Actually, I wouldn't need to say anything, because my god would know what I was thinking, and I'd be so awed and happy and having a such a major awesome experience that any feeble words would be rather inappropriate.
anything else we should know? i'm agnostic, right? yeah, that's right, i am.